TJ defect notice

[snoik]

got pulled over Sunday at Bulga when leaving TuffTrucks, the highway patrol officer said that my spare wheel carrier and gasbottle holder(in particular the gas bottle holder) was not legal, the gas bottle holder is mounted in a way similarto many jerry can holders andI thoughtit would be fine, I was made to remove the bottle from a clamped holder andrope it to my roof rack, seems stupid to me as the holder is much stronger.once the highway patrol officer was finished It was the RMS turn, and they wentover the vehicle and picked me on 33" tyres and the front bar not beingwide enough as a person if hit could go under the wheels and that the bar needsto as wide as the vehicle.
The RMS inspector said I needed a certificate for the wheel size and the front bar, how do I go about this, I have seen many Jeeps with similar front bars and a lot with larger tyres, I'm not too concerned about the gas bottle holder, just reckon the highway patrol was being a prick.

regards
Andrew

[Paul-JK]

As far as I know gas has to be carried on the roof, or in the tray if you have ute. I don't think it can be carried in a passenger compartment (i.e. inside a wagon) and I believe (happy to be corrected if wrong) that you're not supposed to have it on the back in case of an accident where it would be the first thing to get hit if you were rear ended.
As an aside I'm not even sure if it's legal to put petrol on the rear bar either for the same reason. Diesel is less flammable so I think that's OK, and may also be allowed in the passenger compartment......though I never would.

For the front bar, I'm not sure what the ADR's are to be honest but I know you see a lot of folks running stubbies, and not just on Jeeps.
I've heard some say that the bar has to be wide enough to reach the outside of the wheels. I heard some say that the bar must be as wide as the body of the vehicle, though what is classed as "body" on a wrangler and what is classed as wheel flares would also be open for debate. Not sure which is correct. Does seem silly that tube bars like the XROX would be legal as they do both of these yet the tube that extends to the extremity of the vehicle would certainly not stop anyone from getting dragged under the wheel.

I did hear someone say that as long as the wheel flares cover the wheel to at least an angle of 30˚ forward of the vertical line though the centre of the wheel then that was legally OK even with a stubby bar. No idea how accurate that is.

In terms of getting a certificate for the wheel size I'd speak to some of the main accessories suppliers and see what they know, or rather who they know that could help. Not sure if you'd manage to get a certificate for the bumper though.

Good luck with it.

[AV8]

Tuff Truck was always a trap. They are being pricks for the entrapment.

Here's list of certified engineers (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/examiners/vsccs-bulletin-01-licensed-certifiers.pdf)

[Dave]

Some interesting reading for you... Yes. I've been on Google!

Bullbars http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/bull-bar-tolerances.pdf
Specifically, AS 3876.1 requires bull bars be designed with a profile that generally conforms to the shape, in plan view, front view and side view, of the front of the vehicle to which it is fitted

Wheels and tyres (VSI 9) http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/standards/vsi-09-rev4.pdf
The outside diameter of the wheel and tyre combination must be no more than 15mm over the largest diameter
wheel and tyre combination specified for the vehicle and not more than 15mm below the smallest diameter wheel
and tyre combination specified for the vehicle.

Gas Bottles – okay, you’ve beaten me! I cannot find anything relating to where it is LEGAL (or not) to carry fuel of any type outside a vehicle. Lots of “should nots” eg http://www.elgas.com.au/swapngo/bbq-safety-tips but nothing saying you can not!

If anyone else has a link to a legal document, that would be interesting!

Dave

[Wooders]

Profile doesn't mean the bumper must be full width. They key question is are the ends of the stubby bumper capped or open. And are the ends chamfered or rounded rather than sharp.
The Rules talk about the bumper not increasing the width of the vehicle, but doesn't meantion it being narrower (that I am aware) The key bit then is compliance to the forward and side tyre coverage rules
Personally if an inspector said to me the steel bumper needs to be wider to protect MrPedestrian I'd point out that a tyre is FAR softer ;)

Problem is you have multiple ADR's, VSB's, Policy documents and Aust Standards as all seperate rules and it's not always cut&dry. But the problem is in most cases it's not something you'll win arguing. If they don't like it they ping you anyhow.....

[AV8]

If only if it is as easy as Goolging or Binging it then life would be so much simpler. ;)

How does one put 37s on Wranglers then?

I agree with Wooders that it's not always cut and dry.

Why not read the ADRs, VSBs and go see an expert who does this for a living and discuss all the relevant requirements pertaining to your predicament.

[snoik]

thanks for the feed back, looking at the links supplied(bull bar/tyres/gas) the bar meets all requirements, it is a winch bar purchased to suit this model, with no sharp edges and having rounded edges, it may be too narrow as the inspector has stated as it is in line with the mud guards, not the flares, being picky I think. I could easily extend the bar by cutting the ends off and adding 100mm inserts and reweld the ends back on.

with the tyres they are obviously larger than the original tyres but comply with all the requirements as stated belowAdditional requirements for replacement wheels
When wheels and tyres outside the manufacturers recommended range are fitted to a vehicle the following
requirements must be met:
•
The wheel rim width must not be less than the minimum width fitted by the vehicle manufacturer for the
particular model.
•
The wheel and tyre must be contained within the body work or mudguards (including any flares) when the
wheels are in the straight ahead position.
•
The wheel and tyre must not foul any part of the body or suspension under all operating conditions.
•
All wheels and tyres fitted to an axle must be of the same carcass construction, diameter, offset, width and
mounting configuration (except for spare wheels used in an emergency situation).
•
The wheel must not prevent the wheel nuts from fully engaging their studs.
•
The wheel rim must not have a circumferential weld other than that which attaches the rim to the wheel
centre.
•
The wheel must be one designed for the particular hub/axle in respect to bolt pitch circle diameter and
wheel nut tapers. Wheels with slotted stud holes are not permitted.
•
Speedometer accuracy must be maintained for the selected tyre and rim combination.
•
The fitment of wheel spacers (or adaptors for dual wheel conversions) between the wheel mounting face
and the road wheel is not permitted unless fitted as original equipment by the vehicle manufacturer.

the gas bottle storage/transportation doesn't really state you can't put it on the back of the vehicle, as for me I prefer it being there for ease of access, it is mounted on the spare wheel tyre carrier at a height above the tail gate.
I did try to add pictures/thumbnails, but I can't view them on the site not sure what I'm doing wrong, can anyone see them.

regards
Andrew

[Dru]

These guys lined up at Tuff Trucks? Geez, talk about PR.

My suggestion would be to find a TJ specialist to help walk with you through the process. Hopefully they have a certifier they have used before. You may need to swap wheels over to get through.

[AV8]

This site cant upload piccies, only links.

Gas bottles and Fuel cans at the back is dangerous IMHO.

If you get certified with a particular set of tyres, then it is only certified for that size. It won't be legal to change them to bigger or smaller tyres.

All the best..

[Steve F]

These guys lined up at Tuff Trucks? Geez, talk about PR.

My suggestion would be to find a TJ specialist to help walk with you through the process. Hopefully they have a certifier they have used before. You may need to swap wheels over to get through.

They line up every year, I stopped going once the XJ was questionable ;) So haven't been for years because of this tactic taken by the Police and RTA.

Cheers
Steve

[snoik]

where can I go to get certified for the 33" tyres, my TJ had 35" tyres when I purchased it 5 years ago, and I went smaller as it seemed to be struggling with the bigger tyres.

[Heidi]

The specs you need to comply with are in particular VSI 06 and VSI 09

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/vehicle-standards/information-sheets-specifications.html

For Bullbar compliance check this spec sheet
http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/bull-bar-tolerances.pdf

Can't find any thing specific about the gas bottle but suspect it has to do with carrying flammable gas 2 on the rear is against safety regulations.

Not sure who does certification - you will probably need to do a swerve test etc Miraz (Geoff) might be able to help.

[glend]

Gas bottle transportation is covered in ANZIGA Guideline 4,

http://docs.airliquide.com.au/ChainOfResponsibility/Anziga-Guideline_4.pdf

[snoik]

Have added a couple of photos to the clubs face book page, (the photos I tried to add to the forum in my first post), I think I was hard done by, there are a lot of vehicles out there worse than mine

[AV8]

Not sure about the bumper width though, it covers only half the tyres on each side.

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k610/joyschtik/56d60587cabb2fc02b47c8b99cb7cc9c.jpg

What's the biggest tyre spec for your TJ? If it's 30" then, you are only allowed 32" max.

I still do not agree with the placement of your gas bottle there at the back of the Jeep, however convenient. There is a risk of explosion from being rear ended and direct exposure to the sun. I'm no expert but I don't see any collar at the top, at the neck of the gas tank. Is there a possibility of the tank becoming loose from an impact or collision?

LPG (http://www.4wdaction.com.au/articles/2012/its-gas)

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k610/joyschtik/c1e5712e652ef14f0149928561f519d7.jpg

[snoik]

G'day AV8,,

There is no tyre placard on the jeep, not sure where it's supposed to be, that's another thing the inspector picked up on, he couldn't find one, at least he let me off for that, so I'm not sure what tyre size was standard.

I can't see in the standard where it says you can't put the bottle on the back, the mount I made is very strong, being made from 50x6 flat bar, and rolled the diameter of a 4kg bottle, the clamp is bolted and has nyloc nuts, so it won't come loose, I don't leave the bottle on there all the time, only when going camping, it is only used for a BBQ, I have no intention of putting the bottle in the cabin, and if you put it on the roof rack it will have more exposure to sunlight.
The inspector made no mention of the gas cylinder, it was the highway patrol officer, he got me for the gas bottle on the back and having 4 driving lights, he said you are only allowed 2, the inspector got me for the front bar and tyres.

How did you put the pictures on your post.
regards
Andrew

[AV8]

Like I said, I'm no expert, just a personal opinion. If you really want the answer, you prolly won't get it here, you have to walk in to a RMS inspection office, police or whoever the authorities are, get the right documentation and argue your case. Everything else is just a guide, hopefully pointing you in the right direction. I have posted a link to certified RMS engineers in an earlier post, they do this for a living, so I'd go see them first.

From what I've read, transporting LPG is quite dangerous and there isn't anything about carrying the bottles outside the vehicles. Personally I'd be more inclined to carry a dual fuel cooker or other alternative.

To post piccies, upload them to a photo sharing website such as photobucket. Then

view the pic,
copy img link and
paste it in your post.

All the best

[rupicon]

Just find a good rego bloke and get the defect lifted and don't take a 4x4 to tuff truck
Been there done that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wooders]

Hhate to say it but just looking at the front pic I count a few possible. issues. These might or might not be picked up:
1. Forward putrusions from the front bumer.
2. Heim joints on steering also I believe castlated nuts are required
3. Over 400mm width from edge of headlight.
4. Uneven number of forward lights ( not sure if this rule has been updated yet due to light bats).
5. Tyre size over allowed placard (check door james and glovebox).
6. Possible track increase ov err allowance.

[snoik]

you might be right, maybe I'm lucky he didn't pick me up on these things, I have checked your points.
1.forward protrusions are recovery points that protrude 50mm
2. it had Heim joint, but they got tight very quickly, it now has rebuildable TRE fromEMF rod ends and steering components
3.it is exactly 400mm from the edge of the light to the edge of the flare
4.there are 5 extra light on the front, the driving lights work with the high beam and the light bar has a separate switch which can operate any time, I only use this when driving in the scrub, but they could pick me on this. also have small light bars facing backwards for scrub driving.
5.tyre placard was in the glove box, I've had this Jeep for 5 years now and didn't ever notice it, tyre size states P225/75R15, not sure of outer diameter of these compared to 33's
6.track increase should be minimal, it's only bugger tyres, no spacers.

suppose I'll just get it checked out and see what happens

CANADIAN made by us in our own shop

[Wooders]

Goid to hear you chsnged those heims out the few I've seen have not impressed me - thongs like bolts not pssing fully though nylocks, no double sheer or saftey washers etc.
Anyhow 225/75r15 = 28.8"
As for the track do you know the width and backspace on your rims?

[AV8]

Sorry Dave, me thinks 0.5" less = 28.29", therefore 30.29 max. ie: closer to 30" than 31".

[Wooders]

Sorry Dave, me thinks 0.5" less = 28.29", therefore 30.28 max. ie: closer to 30" than 31".

Opps fat fingers, I meant to tyre 28.28 (but yes it rounds upto 28.29).

[snoik]

don't know the back space on the rims, but the overall measurement outside to outside of the tyres is 1780mm

[AV8]

Opps fat fingers, ......

Tell me about it. A kilo a year after school, I'd do really well in the old days.