Boy killed by Tow Hook

[glend]

Sad story of a 14 year old boy killed by a flying tow hook during a failed vehicle recovery. I am coming to the view that responsible recovery training should be compulsory, but how can we mandate that. I guess as a club we can for our members. But as we saw with Hunno's flying hook episode at Jambo, you can't ensure that the other party knows what they are doing, or what are the reasonable limits in that situation, and sometimes shit happens no matter how careful we are. But this was never a good setup, and he should not have been where he was (bet there was no dampener as well).

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/broken-tow-rope-like-slingshot-killing-boy-in-back-seat-20101214-18wa0.html

[Wooders]

Problem with most "training" is that the generally waffle on about the straps, but doesn't appropriately focus on the importance of the recovery point and bolts themselves.

[glend]

See Jambo Committee Section of Forum.

[gifrog]

Hi all,
Sorry this accident has happened, I agree with what Glen has said and I volunteer for the position of safety officer (I know that I am not financial member at the moment ) but I am still willing to help out planning and running the jambo with you all.
Cheers
James
gi frog

[Steve F]

I think from a liability point of view you'd have to be a financial member at a minimum.

We looked at inspecting vehicles etc previously but it's not as simple as a cursory check and then signing off on the recovery point let alone inspecting all gear used in a recovery. The best we can do is educate our members and trip leaders on safest practice etc and ensure they are involved in any Jambo recovery to make sure it is proper and safe. Don't forget the hook that came off of Khalaks TJ was a rated hook bolted to an excepted to be safe point not some dodgey setup or tie down point. Also where do we draw the line on whats dodgey and whats not, towbars are not rated for recoverys yet are one of the most common rear recovery points, my front bar is homemade and is certainly not rated but it is MUCH stronger than any aftermarket recovery point on an XJ and an ARB bar (I wont go into details so you'd have to believe me)

Anyway, you get the idea. Maybe severl 'safe recovery days' would be better for all those members who'll be running trips or tail end charlie etc, we have a lot of time and could run quite a few between now and Jambo. Even winch usage as it wouldn't be unusual for a winch to be used in a recovery and it not be the trip leaders, they may not have one or never used one and if we are to oversee all recoverys as much knowledge as possible would be good.

Cheers
Steve

[marcus]

In the previous 4wd club i was with
the trip leader had to do a cursoury inspection of each 4wd coming on the trip at the meeting point
if it did not have rated recovery points and for instance if you were going to be somewhere muddy and they had bald road tyres
then they could not come on that trip
and it had to be done for every trip
this is obviously not going to be a perfect solution only a suggestion along with as been said before when trip is posted up to state minimum requirements needed

[Steve F]

We do the same, it's currently at the trip leaders discretion and one of the reasons requirements are posted in the trip template. I cant think of a trip where someone has been turned away but there have been a few where someone has had to bypass an obstacle because if there was an issue they could not be safely recovered.

Cheers
Steve

[Wooders]

...... and that the other equipment meets the highest of standards likely to be required with a safety margin (not some of these el cheapo strraps that you see around). .

Actually I'd nearly disagree there. A weaker strap is FAR better than a weaker recovery point. I would much rather us someones dodgy old strap that might break (and slap about), than a dubious recovery point that might come flying missile.

[ACJ]

Also if you sign off on a recovery point and it lets go dosn't that make you liable aswell?
because the first thing that will come up is what makes you competent to give the ok to that recovery point
just my two cents

[reyzor]

Also if you sighn off on a recovery point and it lets go dosn't that make you liable aswell?
because the first thing that will come up is what makes you competent to give the ok to that recovery point
just my two cents

took the words right out of my mouth..... i knnow from work that once you sign of on somethign its your but on the line....

[stevet]

In the previous 4wd club i was with
the trip leader had to do a cursoury inspection of each 4wd coming on the trip at the meeting point
if it did not have rated recovery points and for instance if you were going to be somewhere muddy and they had bald road tyres
then they could not come on that trip
and it had to be done for every trip
this is obviously not going to be a perfect solution only a suggestion along with as been said before when trip is posted up to state minimum requirements needed
I feel the same Marcus, but, but, as I have found out, about at least 80% of new members come as stock vehicles on standard Hwy tyres, no mods. Mod's and tyres upgrades come usually down the track once some experience is gain by the new member.
Recovery points (rated)- I am not qualified to decide whether or not they are rated. Would hate to think of the guilt & possible liability if I rated Ryan's recovery hook O.K. then someone was hurt in that incident. Do I need to inspect the mounting bolts as well??. I would never have rated the JK front tie-down loop as O.K. to use but as they ( JK owners ) tell me they are rated for the job although I have never personnally seen any written proof stating as much. The onus has been on the owner to meet run requirements needed to attend. If I saw the tyres are bald well thats another story & outcome all together. I will advise newbies that they will struggle at times regardless of the prevailing conditions on standard tyres but knowing where you are going really helps regarding available bi-passes to use at the harder sections on some runs but I know "stuff happens" at times unexpectantly off road. Marcus, did the other club also check for current registration or "road worthiness"??, did they also check are the drivers current licencies are valid?? or if they even have one??...................... I'll rather have some stockies on the run rather then turning them away then having them go exploring on their own and getting themselves stuck somewhere with no help at all....................
I have used my own recovery gear willingly to help out strangers stuck at times so have no qualms at all about assisting a fellow club member out but will quietly remind them to get their own gear ASAP which seems to have worked out O.K. thus far...................:)..:)...Stephen T.

[ACJ]

:)
took the words right out of my mouth..... i knnow from work that once you sign of on somethign its your but on the line....

yes my work is the same
it is also the same rule for working on other peoples cars
if somthing goes wrong it would be your fault so I now have a new rule only work on my own

[tonysrich]

I often see posts discussing what is or isn’t a rated recovery point but there seldom seems to be any consensus on the matter. As a club we should define a clear set of standards as to how a vehicle MUST be equipped before being allowed on a club trip. This should not only set the standard for recovery points but set guidelines for all recovery equipment that can be used on club trips as well.

As for deciding on what is or isn’t a rated recovery point it shouldn’t be too hard. I would firstly check the products’ specifications. All recognised manufactures of 4x4 bumpers must for their own liability state whether their product is suitable for the purpose of recoveries. As for bumpers that can’t be identified I would think that any recovery point that is made of thick enough steel that is securely connected to the chassis of the vehicle should be acceptable. You don’t have to be an engineer to make these decisions either. If we do a little research, contact a few recognised authorities in the manufacturing game we should be able to come up with what an acceptable minimum specifications should be. As far as the clubs insurance and our own conscious’s are concerned as long as we make a reasonably responsible attempt to set a minimum standard we should be OK.

As for recovery equipment it is a much easier matter. All straps should have the original manufacturers label still attached clearly stating the products intended use (snatch, towing, winch ext. etc) and the load that it is rated for. As far as I know all recognised brands of straps come with these labels. Owners of drag chains should keep the product label somewhere handy in the vehicle so that if necessary it can be checked. All shackles that are made for vehicle recovery have the load rating imprinted on the shackle itself.

Finally all equipment should appear to be in good condition and suitable for its intended use. At no time should any equipment be used if it does not meet the clubs standards or used for anything other than its intended purpose. If there is not the necessary equipment on hand for the recovery then it should be delayed until such time that there is. Nothing is worth risking an accident like the one described earlier in this thread. How would you feel if you used a piece of equipment only to see it fail and injure a friend. If you don’t have the right gear for the job then you just have to wait until someone else brings it along.

I have some other ideas about how club recoveries should be organised and the some possible liability issues too but this post is long enough as it is. I’ll post them another time.

[Wooders]

My suggestion would be:
1. Awareness Program (compulsory for all current members and all future members)
2. Owner Declaration (only after Awareness program), to be kept on record by the club and available for trip leaders to "tick-off". required for all trips "C" & harder.
3. Visitor Declaration (per trip)

[Wolfe]

My suggestion would be:
1. Awareness Program (compulsory for all current members and all future members)
2. Owner Declaration (only after Awareness program), to be kept on record by the club and available for trip leaders to "tick-off". required for all trips "C" & harder.
3. Visitor Declaration (per trip)
Should we also add current drivers license, rego and current Greenslip insurance? Maybe we need to come up with some sort of form to be signed by trip attendees.

[Wolfe]

My suggestion would be:
1. Awareness Program (compulsory for all current members and all future members)
2. Owner Declaration (only after Awareness program), to be kept on record by the club and available for trip leaders to "tick-off". required for all trips "C" & harder.
3. Visitor Declaration (per trip)
Should we also add current drivers license, rego and current Greenslip insurance? Maybe we need to come up with some sort of form to be signed by trip attendees.

[Wolfe]

At the end of the day we do not have the expertise to certify a recovery point or recovery equipment is rated, and as most manufacturers will not certify their equipment, how can we.
What we can do is to develop a safe practices code and stick to it when ever we carry out recoveries. The mandatory use of dampeners and safe location of bystanders will go a long way to insuring the safety of all. I think the above mention accident may have not happened with the addition of a non expensive dampener like the ARB one or even two socks filled with sand, very sad when you think of it.

[Wolfe]

At the end of the day we do not have the expertise to certify a recovery point or recovery equipment is rated, and as most manufacturers will not certify their equipment, how can we.
What we can do is to develop a safe practices code and stick to it when ever we carry out recoveries. The mandatory use of dampeners and safe location of bystanders will go a long way to insuring the safety of all. I think the above mention accident may have not happened with the addition of a non expensive dampener like the ARB one or even two socks filled with sand, very sad when you think of it.

[glend]

This post was moved

[Wooders]

Remember this forum is publicly visible (without login) - I think any further discussion about club or jamboree policies should be done within those areas.
Just a reminder ;)

[glend]

Thanks Dave, I have moved my comments

Cheers
Glen

[SteveC]

Proper education and attitude is the thing to remember!

Perhaps a check list as mentioned before should be implemented.

A standard one page - returned to the trip leader before the date.

eg - 1. Have you a working UHF
2. Do you have recovery points front & Back
3. What style of tyres and what are their tread %
4. Have you participated in formal training
etc etc

[stevet]

Remember this forum is publicly visible (without login) - I think any further discussion about club or jamboree policies should be done within those areas.
Just a reminder ;)
Correct Wooder's, Sorry for the blue..:(........:).........