Vibrating front wheels

[bradleyfutter]

Hi all, so i am very very green to mod'ing 4WD's. About 3 weeks ago i put a supposed 50mm lift kit on my other wise stock standard TJ Wrangler sport. Now it was fitted by a reputable 4WD place in sydney. It was meant to come with all the new bits and pieces to make it a complete kit.

So firstly, the shop asked me a few questions about my car in its current state (nothing fitted at all, not even a standard bull bar), and my future plans, as a result they put 40-80kg springs in the front and 100kg springs in the back, and what resulted in about a 3-3.5" lift. After driving for a couple days it was obvious there was something critically wrong with the setup. Under extended periods of breaking or when hitting bumps, the car ended up in heart stopping buthole puckering shakes !!!

so after about 3 or 4 trips back and forth from the shop, i now have the 0-40kg springs in the front. but alas, it still shakes, no where near as dramatic tho, but none the less it still shakes and im still not happy !!

When i was test driving TJs before i bought mine, i drove a few with lift kits and did not notice what mine is doing now, so i figure, this cant be normal. should i be swapping out the rear springs to?

Anyone out there experience similar problems? or know ways to fix !! or know anyone you can give a second opinion on the install to see if i have been jibbed ??

just FYI its old man emu sport shock and spring setup with all the bump stops, gear box spacers and panhard ext.

Please tell me this can be fixed and that i havent just wasted 1500 and permenately wrecked my TJ !!

[Steve F]

Do a google search on 'Death Wobble' as this is what you're getting. If the bushes etc are in good condition the most likely cause is the caster angle, basically the caster is now less than it was and the front end is getting a shimmy much like a shopping trolley (they have 0% caster). To fix it you will need to push the lower control arms forward. There are shims on the body end of the lower control arm mounts and room for some adjustment, shim the control arms a little more than they are now to get some caster back and hopefully the wobbles will go. Oh, and it gets worse the higher you get because the caster is reduced the higher you go, so when they put lower springs in the DW's weren't so bad.

Hope that helps :)

Cheers
Steve

[Wolfe]

Now it was fitted by a reputable 4WD place in sydney.

Please tell me this can be fixed and that i havent just wasted 1500 and permenately wrecked my TJ !!




Which shop?

There's nothing quite like the "Death wobbles" for evacuating ones bowels. Don't sweat it, it happens all the time, just do plenty of research on line and work through the problems till you find the solution. Unfortunately there could be any number of contributing factors but usually it comes from play in ball joints or tie rod ends. If you get underneath your rig and get someone to move the steering wheel back and forth, you may spot where the play is. Good luck, be patient and welcome to modifying your jeep. ;D

[glend]

I would suggest having the guys at ProAxle look at it. They have all the equipment, shims, etc to correct the angles. They have a shop at Enfield (behind the bus depot) and a couple of others around town. The place looks like crap but they know what they are doing.

[bradleyfutter]

I dont know if im going to get into trouble naming the shop or not... they are a great bunch, really helpful guys, and they are a BIG respected brand as far as im aware.

but im not particularly happy with the end result. I dont expect my car to be dangerous to drive after ive spent so much money for someone who is qualified to the job properly.

Also im not so keen on playing with the mechanics of my car, thats why ive paid top dollar for a well known shop to do it !!

[Steve F]

I doubt they would have done a wheel alignment, which is what will pick up the caster problem, tell then that you think this may be the issue (I'm assuming they've checked the ball joints etc) and then they may be able to fix it. Like I said it's just a few shims at the frame end of the lower control arms.

Cheers
Steve

[Hunno]

I don't know anything about TJ's but if you live in Sydney you should come to the meeting to night I sure a few of the guys would be interested to have a look and give you a better idea of what could be wrong.

December meeting (7:30pm Wednesday 2nd December) will be held at TJM Megastores premises 1/163 Prospect Hwy Seven Hills

[Dave]

Not that my vehicle is a TJ, but when TJM put my lift in I asked about offset castor bushes. They said that they may be needed in a lift of more than 2 inches when the castor is altered too much - resulting in symptoms like you describe. As Steve F said, a wheel alignment (a MUST after suspension work) would have picked that up.

Dave

[sbadman]

Not that my vehicle is a TJ, but when TJM put my lift in I asked about offset castor bushes. They said that they may be needed in a lift of more than 2 inches when the castor is altered too much - resulting in symptoms like you describe. As Steve F said, a wheel alignment (a MUST after suspension work) would have picked that up.

Dave


I would have thought that the caster an IFS vehicle like the KJ's wouldn't be affected by a suspension lift, due to the geometry of the arms. Camber would be a different story though.

The bigger lifts on the SFA vehicles often come with aftermarket control arms to allow caster to stay within specs, as you can only adjust so far with shims!

[CraigB]

Howdy mate,
Mine is a JK and had same drama after lift - same kit you got too. Alignment sorted it, but note what Steve says above, also, do you still have the same stock swaybar linkages from before the lift? The OME kit is a nominal 2", but is actually almost double that. I bought extended swaybar disconnect linkages and got another alignment. So, for now about 95% good, but need a few smallish tweaks for the elusive 100% score. Haha, like Wolfie says: welcome to the wonderful world of Jeep mods - tempremental game it is, enjoy...
...it never, ever ends...
CRB

[bradleyfutter]

So I've been told it looks like my caster angle could be the cause as everything else checks out.

Anyone know where i can source a Adjustable Caster Kit i believe its called? I seems heaps of places in the US do them, but would much rather pick one up ASAP locally.

[Steve F]

Hmmm, looks like the TJ cant have the control arms shimmed like the XJ, call Wooders (Dave) and speak to him about the caster kit or the other option adjustable lower control arms. Details are on his site at http://www.wooders.com.au The adjustable lower control arms might be a better option if you can afford them as they have a much great range than a cam bolt and also replace the stock, weak, control arms. I guess it depends on budget and intended use though.

Cheers
Steve

[bradleyfutter]

Yeah ive tried to call wooders already but not answer, sent them an email to so will wait for a reply.

Id rather spend 60 now and see if that fixes it, then spend 1000 to find out it doesnt... So for now ill try chase a cam bolt.

but interestingly just spoke to another place 4x4 place in sydney area that recons it definitely wont be the caster angler??? he says fit steering damper, which ive been told by the place that fitted mine to not do because it will just mask the problem.

now im concerned as i have a couple different places giving me conflicting stories !!!

[Steve F]

Yep, steering dampner will just mask it, may fix it but it wont be permanent. If the existing one is leaking or has leaked it's worth replacing it but it isn't a solution to the problem rather a bandaid.

Cheers
Steve

[bradleyfutter]

well i dont have one in the first place, so dont need to worry about a leaking one :P

Most have said check caster angle, and now one is saying caster angle will have nothing to do with it?

whats the general consensus for the shimmy and caster angle? could it be a cause, or is it bullsh!t?

[bradleyfutter]

Well ignore my above comment :P turns out they all have steering dampner... just didnt see it because its not a big obvious one :P

Thanks to Dave from Wooders for all his help under the car on thursday. Turns out the front panhard bushes are shot so got a replacement adjustable panhard bar from him now just got to install.

Was after some help any tips, suggestions, things to look for etc would be greatly appreciated !!

is it as simple as just setting it to the same length as the stock one, if not a tiny bit longer (apparently its a little short on the drivers side?) and stick it on???

do i need wheel alignment to be done again as its effectively changing the steering of the car?

Will stick it on this evening and hope it goes well :P

[Bruce Kerney]

Brad,
Have Steve T or one of the knowledgable guys explain what happens when a suspension is lifted , even marginally say 2 inches, ask about neoprene bushes V's Rubber, get one of them or Wooders to slide under your truck and without getting too carried away have a quick look and understand how it works .... When I lifted my truck , I was lucky enough to have it explained to me, all the different linkages and bars that hold the axle and gear in place. There is a diagonal arm or linkage that when the vehicle is raised works like a pivot point and the axle naturally has to move slightly to one side so a very small adjustment can be made but a lot don't bother, hardly noticable, I didn't change mine.
Why didn't the shop check the bushes when they did the lift?????/

[Steve F]

To get the panhard right take the old one out and then bounce the front of the jeep around a bit, this should get the front suspension settled in its natural position which should have the wheels in the right spot. You can also run a string line down each guard (make sure you're on flat ground) and measure the gap from string to wheel and make sure it is the same on both sides, turning the steering whell will help more the body around if you need to. Once that is all right just adjusted the panhard so it fits in without pulling the axle in either direction. If you have to really fight to get it in then it is too long or too short.

Allow some time to fit the panhard as sometimes the ball joint can be very hard to get out of the frame side mount, it's a tapered fit so can get really jammed in there. I've never been able to get mine out without taking the bracket off the frame but the TJ one is not bolted on like the XJ so you wont have that luxury, be prepared to go get a balljoint puller or spend sometime battling.

Anyway, I'd still be checking caster after all this regardless. My Jeep has had the caster adjusted with every lift and it's gone from stock to 2" to 3.5" to 5" and each time I've adjusted the caster and panhard and it drives nicely (although at the moment it needs a new hub and uni fitted). When I went from 3.5 - 5 without adjusting the caster it was almost undrivable when it hit a bump in the road, after setting up right it's fine.

Cheers
Steve

[bradleyfutter]

Thanks for the info Steve, but so your saying i might still need to adjust the caster anyway?? disaster :( was really hoping to avoid that just due to cost cause thats another easy $500+ ontop of the now $1700 ive already spent for a supposed easy 2" lift !!

[Steve F]

Hopefully you wont but I wouldn't completley rule it out, at 2" you should be pretty safe it just seems that if nothing else has changed other than the lift and along with that caster it seems like it could be the culprit especially since I think you said it got better as the lift was reduced. But hey, the angle of the panhard would also have changed and that will get closer to stock as you came back down so maybe the fact that the bushes are worn is enough to do it as the balljoint will be on a greater angle and with the axle off centre now more load as well. Anyway, if the panhard is know to be worn it's a good place to start and a worthwhile upgrade with any lift.

Cheers
Steve

[bradleyfutter]

Anyone know where i can get the tool to pop out the joint for the panhard? i believe its called a ball joint breaker? my old man has one but its to small, the arms of the breaker arnt long enough to get over the bolt of the panhard.

Damn thing is in soooo tight tried everything i could to muscle it out without any luck...

[CraigB]

I have this trouble all the time. Wacks out the electronics too. The ARB OME lift kit leaves out some essential components. I'm waiting for another year to have the entire lift suspension changed with proper adjustments etc. In the meantime - Immer Voran

CRB

[casey]

Anyone know where i can get the tool to pop out the joint for the panhard? i believe its called a ball joint breaker? my old man has one but its to small, the arms of the breaker arnt long enough to get over the bolt of the panhard.

Damn thing is in soooo tight tried everything i could to muscle it out without any luck...


well..when i was installing my lift, vinnie taught me this trick where you hit the side of the panhard rod ball joint with a hammer - and it just popped out!

[bradleyfutter]

looks like its going to bushes everywhere causing the problem, so the front panhard has been replaced, its deff better now, but now i can see the tie end rods on the draglink (i think thats what it is called) are shot and look like they deff need replacing too. good news is looks like i can just place the tie rod ends, which is cheap !!

[goldeneagle05]

Every time I let the air out on the 33s I get a wobble till I balance thr tyres again, Got a lift and never had a wheel alignment just checkrd it with a plank of wood and adjusted with power steering and adjustable front pan rod, it works :D :D :D,


Peter

[bradleyfutter]

yeah getting wheel balance, rotation, and alignment done tomorrow morning hopefully get it sorted soon.